[00:00:01.100] – Alan Petersen
Welcome to Meet the Thriller Author, the go-to podcast for delving into the minds behind the most gripping mysteries, readers, and suspense novels. As a fellow thriller writer and your guide, I’m Alan Petersen, and I invite you to explore nearly a decade of conversations with the giants of the genre, from Lee Child to Dean Koontz, Walter Moseley, Tess Gerritssen, and more, all available over at thrillingreads. Com. There you’ll find a treasure trove of show notes, transcripts, and direct links to my novels, adding to your experience of the Thriller Universe.

[00:00:30.850] – Alan Petersen
I’m glad to bring back the podcast after a couple of months of hiatus. I have a great lineup of new interviews coming up to you this year, so stay tuned for those. In this episode, number 196, I welcome back Nick Petrie. His first novel, The Drifter, won the ITW Thriller and Barry Awards and was nominated for Edgar, Anthony, and Hammond Awards. The eighth book in the Peter Asch series, The Price You Pay, will be published on February sixth, so make sure to go get your copy. It was another action-pack thriller from nick who writes some of the most high-octane scenes from places and using regular everyday items. Reminds me a little bit of MacGyver, a bit lethal, so make sure to pick up The Price You Pay. It was a lot of fun reading that thriller. So join me as I dive into a riveting conversation with nick Petrie. Hey, everybody. This is Alan with Meet the Thriller author. And on the podcast, I’m welcoming back nick Petrie, who is the author of the best-selling Peter Asch series, the eighth book in that series, The Price You Pay, will be coming out in February sixth. 2024, but it is available for pre-order right now. So, Nick, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:36.280] – Nick Petrie
Well, thanks so much for having me, Alan. I really appreciate it.

[00:01:38.750] – Alan Petersen
Yeah. So we talked the last time we chatted, it was about a year ago. You had the seventh book coming out, and now here’s number eight. So it must be exciting. I was wondering, too, when you first started writing this series, the first book was The Drifter, right? Right. Were you envisioning a long series? How does that work? You’re pitching this.

[00:01:59.520] – Nick Petrie
Not Not at all. I did not. Well, I didn’t think that book would ever get published because I’d written three previous books that couldn’t get published. And so why would this one be any different? But I didn’t think of it as the start of a series. But there must have been something in the DNA of the book. I love series. I read series. And my agent got hold of it and she said, So you’re going to write the next one, right? And I’m like, Sure, yeah, I can do that. Which is the answer I try to provide at all times is, Sure, Yeah. Yeah, I could do that. Yeah, as my wife says, just say yes. But it’s interesting, right? Because so now I’m… Book 8, this has become the long-running series, and it’s a challenge to find another way to approach the character, something new to throw at them, and a way to continue to develop them, right? Because my readers, in particular, are interested in character. These have become surprising surprisingly to me, really beloved characters. I had somebody online suggest, I kill off Peter’s girlfriend because she was too bossy. There was a little bit of pushback. I thought that was interesting.

[00:03:13.820] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, it’s interesting. Well, is it that something that people complain about, too? Now, if you do that, then other people will be upset with you for doing it.

[00:03:21.380] – Nick Petrie
Well, the challenge of a series is that you know the protagonist is going to survive. If you have these recurring characters that have been through all the previous books, you’re pretty sure they’re going to survive, too. So how do you keep it feeling risky, keep feeling the tension? And one is to try really hard to kill your characters and see what happens.

[00:03:47.030] – Alan Petersen
Yeah. When you’re writing these, when you start to get a new idea for a new book, do you right away know this is going to be a Peter Asch? Or how does that work when the idea first comes to you?

[00:03:59.110] – Nick Petrie
Well, I mean, the beauty of the series from a writer’s standpoint is that it’s very flexible, right? The books are set in a whole bunch of different locations. There’s no fixed spot. I’m not like Robert Parker writing about Boston or Robert Crais writing about LA. Peter can go anywhere. He’s been to Iceland, he’s been to Memphis, he’s been to California. So there’s all this flexibility built into And there’s only three recurring characters, really, that really get a lot of page time. So I get to add all kinds of other elements. It helps me keep the books fresh. It keeps the books unique to each other. So there are a lot of stories that can certainly be Peter Ash novels. But I do have a couple in mind. I’m actually working on one right now that’s not a Peter book because I just wanted that character to be be more of a mess. Peter is a heroic character, and it’s fun to write, but I wanted to write somebody who didn’t have such a strong sense of right and wrong. I wanted to write somebody who was a screw up. And so that’s the thing I’m working on at this very moment.

[00:05:19.610] – Nick Petrie
So to get back to The Price You Pay, which is the new book, the thing that I’ve done differently with this is Lewis, who is Peter’s best friend, in Peter’s mind, the most dangerous man he’s ever met. Louis is the one who comes to Peter’s rescue when things get really hairy. And in The Price You Pay, I wanted Louis to be the one who is in trouble. And so Peter comes to the rescue. So in this book, Louis’ past comes back to haunt. Louis is a career criminal who’s mostly retired, but his past comes back to haunt him. And I wanted Peter to be to ride along to see Louis’ former life. And so that’s what I’ve done with this book.

[00:06:06.700] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, so it was fun. When I was reading, it was like the last one was a little small town, Nebraska. Now here we’re in Chicago, in the crime, the underworld there of Chicago. So it makes them real fun. Like you said, the location becomes a big part of each new book.

[00:06:26.190] – Nick Petrie
Yeah, I’m super interested in setting. And I think setting, if you When you lean into it, it really becomes a character of its own. The book that I wrote, Burning Bright, the second book, which is set in California and Oregon, and Seattle, has a very different flavor to the first book set in Milwaukee or the third book set in Colorado, just because there’s also topics that I’m interested in. So every book had diving into something, whether it’s emerging technology or the new, that’s no longer so new, but the legal cannabis, that’s the Colorado book, or Race in Class, that’s the book that I said in Memphis. So I’m always starting with her being interested in some thing, and I pick the location as a way to highlight that issue that I’m trying to tell a story around. I mean, this is social commentary in the way that all crime fiction is social commentary, but I’m not trying to hit over the head with a solution. I’m trying to tell a fast, fun story that is about something, that has some content to it. It’s not just good guys and bad guys beating each other up, although there is that, too.

[00:07:44.300] – Alan Petersen
What’s your process then? When you first get the idea for the price you pay, when you get the idea, do you outline? How do you start working on it and how does the process take for you?

[00:07:58.250] – Nick Petrie
I would love to be an outliner. I think that would be a much more efficient way to write a book. I have often said that the way that I write a book is the worst way for me to write a book, aside from the other way that I have tried. I am a total panzer. I start with barely an idea. This one has a little bit more of an idea than others because I knew I wanted Lewis and Peter to reverse roles. But mostly I start with a circumstance. I start with a situation. I just try to… Like all writers, I have stuff I’m thinking about, something I’ve read that’s stuck on my mind or a story in the news or whatever. I just keep going and I keep trying to I keep trying to… I have some tension on the page. I’m just trying to entertain myself. If I can entertain myself, I can entertain a reader, at least in theory.

[00:08:58.660] – Alan Petersen
Now, I remember that with that last, you had a lot of jobs before you started writing. Is that something that you… Do you always want to write?

[00:09:04.960] – Nick Petrie
Oh, yeah. No, I was the editor-in-chief of my high school newspaper. Being that allowed me to write an eight-part soap opera my senior year, featuring all of my friends and enemies. When the paper came out, people would stop me in the hallway and say, Oh, this was really funny, or they would comment on what I’d written, and I I already had taken a couple of creative writing classes, but that was like, Oh, to have people actually read this weird stuff coming out of my head? I got hooked. My undergraduate degree is in creative writing in American culture. I’m one of the few people actually use their college degree for a living, which is weird. And along the way, I got a master’s in Fine Arts. And I really have been writing forever. I’ve written a bunch of short stories. I wrote three books I couldn’t get published before the first one, as I said. I think that’s a key ingredient to a life in publishing is you would do it whether you got paid or not. And that’s definitely where I am, because I did it without getting paid for 25 years.

[00:10:16.620] – Alan Petersen
Yeah. Then you become the overnight success, right?

[00:10:19.800] – Nick Petrie
Yes, the 25-year overnight success.

[00:10:23.960] – Alan Petersen
How do you like the MFA program, what was that like? Is that something that you enjoyed going through that? Because those are pretty tough.

[00:10:31.940] – Nick Petrie
Well, it was interesting because in the early days, I didn’t really want to write crime fiction, per se. When I was in high school, I wanted to be Ernest Hemingway. When I was in college, I wanted to be Jim Harrison, and afterward, I wanted to be Cormac McCarthy. So I always had big ambitions, but I’m not sure that what I wrote How did you fit that. And I grew up reading crime fiction. I grew up on sci-fi and fantasy, which is very story-driven stuff. And when I turned in my first story for that first seminar in my MFA, my professor said, You write the stuff that people are actually going to read, and it wasn’t a compliment. It was the place where it was like a very ivory tower. And we had somebody who had already won a Pushkar Prize at 22. People really trying to write family traumas, really all across the board. But I learned… What I got the most out of it was the community of people to whom writing was important. And you can get that. I’m not sure it was worth the money I spent on an MFA, but you can get that at a writer’s conference.

[00:11:54.070] – Nick Petrie
You can get that by going to Boucher Con. But I’m not sure I got much real feedback as a writer that I really took away. I think for me, I learned to write by reading. I learned to write by… And I still read a lot. I read 100 books a year. I start probably twice that number, and I’ll read a couple of chapters, and I’ll either put it down or sometimes throw it across the room if I get really annoyed. I read a lot of non-conviction that I’ll read half a book or a third of a book, but I will finish literally 100 books a year and plus periodicals and everything else. Because you want to get soaked in story. You want to know how story works. For me, that was my best teacher, was to read good stuff.

[00:12:45.780] – Alan Petersen
What was the turning point for you then? Because I would imagine, yeah, like those MFAs probably aren’t too much fans of genre fiction. What started to make you think, Oh, maybe I’ll try to write a crime thriller. Who were some of some of the authors that inspired you and that you liked when you were reading them?

[00:13:03.940] – Nick Petrie
Oh, well, I mean, I grew up reading Robert Parker, those Spencer books. I still go back and reread. Elmore Leonard, when I was in high school and college, his stuff is fantastic. I can’t believe that there are a lot of people who still don’t really know who he is, but he was a very big deal in the ’80s and ’90s. He had something like 10 of his books were made in the movies, super talented, tight crime writer. Who else did I read? Travis McGee, the John D. Mcdonald series. All of that stuff from the ’80s and ’90s were really influential to me. And I still read Robert Crais, who’s first book, The Monkey’s Ranecoat, came out when I was in college. I have read every single book of his as it came out for his entire career. And he’s, again, a super talented guy, obviously. I mean, I read my friends. I read some of the big names if I think it’s a big book. On my newsletter, actually, I just did a Christmas edition where I gave out some… Recommended some books for gifts. And I try to recommend people who are either just starting out or who are not super well known.

[00:14:22.260] – Nick Petrie
But I ended up shouting out two of Michael Connolly’s books because he, I think, is still really He’s stretching. He’s still trying new things. He’s pushing his characters. He’s pushing himself. It’s a common place in the world of crime fiction that Michael Connolly is one of the best. But to really see it, to go back and be like, wow, And I will take a book apart. A couple of times a year, I’ll find a book I really like, and then I’ll go back and read it again, and I’ll outline it. And then you can really see the bones of how a book works. It’s chapter by chapter, just a couple of lines, what happens, what the emotional content is, what the plot content is, if there are clues or whatever, I’ll note that, and how many pages. And so you can really learn great mechanics that way. How many chapters can you go between… If you have two points of view and you’re alternating, how long can you go between those points of view without losing the second one? What’s a good ratio for going back and forth? It’s basic stuff like that, which is, I think, hard to learn.

[00:15:35.480] – Nick Petrie
You just have to feel your way through it. But if you can break down a book, if you can beatline a book that you really like, you can really see the bones of how it works. That’s also a really good way to learn how to write novels.

[00:15:46.960] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, that’s a great idea. It’s like a reverse engineering it, basically. Totally. Yeah, I’ve done that myself as well, too. Like you said, just this little synopsis, a little word doc, and then just chapter one, chapter two. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a good advice because I know a lot of spying writers listen to this podcast. Yeah, great. That’s one thing I hear, too. Sometimes you hear I’ve interviewed people that are like, Well, I don’t like to read them on my own genre because I get work. I don’t understand that. I love crime readers, and I’m a fan first. I could never just give it up because I’m worried I’m copying somebody or something.

[00:16:21.280] – Nick Petrie
Yeah, I guess I understand that. I also am a fan first, for sure. But one of the problems, and you probably have this problem, too, is that once you become a professional writer, reading changes. That reading becomes part of the work. But for me, if I can find a book that I just want to stretch out on the couch and I stop analyzing it as I go, to me, that is a rare pleasure. And so I have a shortlist of those authors who I can just fall into their books without having to take them apart and put them back together in my head. Yeah.

[00:17:02.020] – Alan Petersen
And now, so you were saying that you start writing your book, you’re not knowing where it’s going to go. How do you keep yourself? Do you have word count goals then? How do you keep moving forward? I do have word count goals.

[00:17:15.920] – Nick Petrie
I really show up every day. My goal is a thousand words a day. I have lots of days where I’m hitting 15, 16, 17, 100 words. My record is 4,000. I’ve only done it once, and I haven’t come close. It was just a rare day. But there are plenty of days where it’s like, I have to figure something out, so I will just park my butt in my chair with a notebook and just start scribbling, or I’ll open a new document, and I’ll just start writing in all caps about, So what am I trying to do here? And it’s really talking to yourself. I’ve also got a big artist pad, which is out of reach here, I’d show you, but where there’s no lines. So if I to draw a picture of a parking lot where something happens, if I need to diagram where the cars are and where the door to the bar is or whatever else, that helps me visualize. Or if I’m working on plot or story, It’s a big piece of paper. It’s a 17 by 11. So you can draw arrows and connect things because that’s a big piece of what we do as writers is to make unlikely connections.

[00:18:29.670] – Nick Petrie
So So I’ll have those days, too, where I know I’m not going to get my work done. I know I’m not going to move the book forward. But those are necessary days for me. And I build those in because there’s a lot of head scratching. I think for outliners, they do all that head scratching in the beginning, at least in theory. Outlining for me is… I’ve tried it. Once I’m done with an outline, I’m done with the book, I’m bored. For me, there’s a great… I’ve got it up on my wall here, if I can find it. A great Tennessee Williams quote. Where the hell is it? I have all these quotes up on my wall. Just keep the thing going any way you can. If you have to pull out a gun in the second act, do it. That’s Tennessee Williams.

[00:19:22.000] – Alan Petersen
Do you work through the whole first draft first, or do you go back as you’re writing it?

[00:19:27.220] – Nick Petrie
There are certain… I I always revise a couple of days before, and I find that to be really necessary because I’m just lurching forward, and then I’m like, Oh, no, actually, this is how this conversation should work, or, Where’s the emotion here? I have to find this emotional piece. So I probably spend a third of my day revising the last two days’ worth of work and then pushing forward. But then I’ll get stuck, and to me, getting stuck is a signal that I’ve I’ve made a wrong turn or I’ve forgotten something. And so I’ll work my way backward to be like, to look at those choices. Did I make the wrong choice? Did I forget something? Is this character not the right character for here? And then if I can’t figure that out, then I go all the way back to the beginning and I just edit my way forward again. And I find that that process is really important once I’m After the first act, after the second act, part way into the third act, you leave yourself these little clues about what’s going to happen that you don’t know you’re dropping. But it’s like, Oh, on page 50, I just included this rando little detail.

[00:20:49.260] – Nick Petrie
But if I tweak it, I can use it there for that other thing. For me, I learned what some of my subconscious intentions were by going back to the beginning. And then by the time I’m at the end, what I really have is a couple of pages of notes that I have to go back and integrate because I wanted to keep my momentum. So, oh, yeah, in this scene, the car chase should end like this, not like that. Or this character needs to be, I need to go back and change the initial description to match the way the character evolved as the book went forward. So I I have some of that stuff that I just don’t want to blow momentum. But then by the time I get to the end, I have really 10 days, 2 weeks worth of edits, and then it’s out the door to my editor.

[00:21:42.500] – Alan Petersen
Oh, that’s right. You write pretty clean then, even though you’re going back and all that.

[00:21:46.530] – Nick Petrie
Well, part of it is going back is cleaning up, right? I have friends who they write a really dirty, bad 40,000-word draft, and then they go it again and they add a layer of place. The first draft is just basically dialog and action. The second draft, they layer in place and location and some of those details. And the third draft, they layer in… It’s a historical novel, so they lay in the history piece. Oh, what the car needs to be a Model T and blah, blah, blah, right? To me, I could never function that way. So I’ve always got a half dozen windows open on my browser. I’m I’m researching fentanyl. I’m researching how cannabis grows. I’m researching whatever. And so I research along the way. And by the time I get to the end, I always spend a lot of attention on sentences and paragraphs and dialog. To me, that’s really important. The quality of the prose or the language has always been important to me as a writer. So that’s probably the biggest time-waster as a writer is Oh, I just want this to be just right. I had an editor once who was like, Yeah, nick, nobody cares.

[00:23:06.320] – Nick Petrie
You are the only person who notices, but I do notice. It’s important to me. I have friends who are writers, and I know they’re going to read my stuff, and I want them to write. You write for your friends in a way as well.

[00:23:23.020] – Alan Petersen
Yeah. So and so is going to pick that up. Yeah. Yeah. And so now with your research, too, I’m curious because your books, the Peter Asch books, are always set in different areas. Do you write about places that you’ve been to, or if you haven’t been there, you just research it online? Or how does that work?

[00:23:46.830] – Nick Petrie
Well, no, I go every place that I’m writing about. Oh, yeah. No, I find that to be really important. Sometimes there are places I’ve been to, but then I go back. Sometimes they are places I want to go. So I’d never been to Colorado. So that It was an excuse to go drive around Denver and go visit a bunch of cannabis operations and take a backpacking trip with my son. But when you’re there, you get stuff that you will never get online. I don’t think there’s really a substitute for it. So in Colorado, it was the fact that in Denver, the streets are really wide, and you can see the Rockies. If you look West, from pretty much any street, anywhere. They’re so big, and they just dominate. And so it really gave the city a Western feel. And so that book actually ended up being a Western, in a way. The book about Memphis, it’s really… The detail I think I used that was the most evocative is when I was there, there are all these flowering trees, so they’re beautiful, but the flowers were all falling off the trees and they were rotting in the gutter, and it was this funky, putrid floral smell.

[00:25:08.210] – Nick Petrie
And that was a book about race in class and set in Memphis. Just the metaphor of these things that you bump into by accident. I mean, it would never have occurred to me that that would be part of Memphis, is the smell of these flowers rotting in the street. But again, I’m a detailed person. I’m really interested in having these books be evocative. I want you to feel like you have fallen into this world. And so that’s the other reason why I think everybody should really go research the places that they’re writing about.

[00:25:41.260] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, I agree with that, too. You’re not going to get that from Google Maps. No.

[00:25:45.490] – Nick Petrie
I do spend a lot of time on Google Maps. I spend a lot of time on street view. And those are super useful tools for every writer. But to me, that’s the place to begin. That’s not the place to end.

[00:25:58.740] – Alan Petersen
And so now with In the price you pay, the setting in Chicago, I know you’re not too far away in Milwaukee. So do you know Chicago well, or did you go over there to research for this one?

[00:26:09.550] – Nick Petrie
I definitely. I drove around some really sketchy neighborhood.

[00:26:13.480] – Alan Petersen
I was going to ask about that, too, because What’s the news a lot lately?

[00:26:15.980] – Nick Petrie
No, Chicago is super interesting. Milwaukee has a little brother feeling about Chicago. But Chicago is big city, and I love to drive around terrible neighborhoods. It drives my wife nuts when I go. But it’s not like I’m driving a nice car. I’m driving my 17-year-old Honda minivan, so I’m not worried about appearing to be too affluent or any of those things. And the other thing about that is that we have these suppositions about those neighborhoods, that everybody is… Gunfire is going off at all times, and you’re going to get robbed on every street corner. And the fact is, 99 % of the people in those neighborhoods are just trying to go about their day. They’re trying to get to the grocery store. They’re trying to get to work. They’re trying to live their lives. And to me, I think that’s a really important piece of writing crime fiction is that it’s in the middle of a real… It’s in the middle of the real world, right? I want these books to feel realistic, that you’re dropped right into something and you’re learning something. But my characters are not Superman. My characters are not invulnerable. I want people to identify with them, right?

[00:27:39.890] – Nick Petrie
And it’s hard to identify with a Superman.

[00:27:43.420] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, I think that makes it fun, too. Yeah, because you said, they’re not perfect. They have these problems and issues, and that makes it more fun to read than, like you said, the Perfect or Superman or whatever, like a Marvel movie.

[00:27:55.320] – Nick Petrie
Right. Well, and again, I appreciate that you find them fun to read because to me, I think That’s the important stuff.

[00:28:02.390] – Alan Petersen
Now, before I let you go on everything, now, you were saying, too, about you’re working on a new book. Are you going to be working on another Peter Asch in the future?

[00:28:11.610] – Nick Petrie
Oh, absolutely. I’m so not done with Peter. One of the interesting things about writing a standalone was I was really realizing how much I love Peter and the other characters in these books and how much of myself I put into those books. Writing something different after eight Peter Asch books has been really be a challenge, and I am not interested in being finished with Peter anytime soon.

[00:28:38.140] – Alan Petersen
When does your next one? The price of pay comes out in February, and so the other Is that going to come out next year, too?

[00:28:46.550] – Nick Petrie
If I finish it on time.

[00:28:49.770] – Alan Petersen
I did get a copy from your publisher.

[00:28:51.710] – Nick Petrie
Oh, excellent.

[00:28:53.100] – Alan Petersen
I’ve been enjoying that. Like I said, I do have a lot of aspiring writers that listen to this. I always like ask my guests before I let them go? I know you’ve been giving me some great advice, but just some advice for somebody who wants to write readers and mysteries and suspense type novels.

[00:29:10.420] – Nick Petrie
I guess I would give advice to a larger group of people, I guess. I think writing is really hard, right? And you have to give up a lot of stuff to have the time. It takes a long time to learn to be a writer. It takes a long time to write a book, unless you’re one of the very lucky people who you’re 22 and you can write a book in three months, in which case, God bless you. I hope never to meet you because that is not me. But it’s hard to do. I think when I want my work to feel like when you’re reading it is I want it to feel effortless. I want it to feel like you’re just you’re blowing through it. I think that’s a quality that all of our favorite writers have, is that you’re just in really good company, and you’re having a really good time. But that’s not what the process of writing is like. So if you feel like, Man, this is really hard, and I’m never going to get good at it. I’ve written, I got eight books published, and I still feel like that on a daily basis.

[00:30:16.020] – Nick Petrie
I’m in contact with a number of writers. I have phone calls that I make every week or two to other writers, and it’s hard for everybody. There’s a great interview with Lee Child, who is the granddaddy. He’s no longer writing those Reacher books anymore. But there’s a great interview. It was what? Two or three years before he passed the torch to his brother, where he said every book, he sits down and he’s afraid he’s lost it. It’s like he’s written 20 books, but I don’t know, can I do it again? To me, that was so freeing to know that even Lee Child, who is such a stylist and who has been… Those books are so widely read, and they’re so well written that he is struggling, too. And so I guess that’s, for me, the message is that, yes, you need to write something that’s interesting to you, that feels like you. Don’t look for a niche in the market and fill it. Write the thing that you want to read, but also know that it’s hard. And if you’re struggling, just keep going. That is my mantra every day is just keep showing up at the page, keep trying to move that story forward, and you will get there.

[00:31:28.910] – Nick Petrie
You will get there if you keep showing up.

[00:31:31.520] – Alan Petersen
Yeah, that’s a great advice. Like you said, it took you 20 to 25 years.

[00:31:36.270] – Nick Petrie
Sure. I know a whole bunch of writers who… I mean, I read three books I couldn’t get published. That’s a normal story. People who are now household names had that same long challenge. It’s a hard thing to do. Yeah.

[00:31:57.170] – Alan Petersen
All right, Naples, thank you so much for coming back to the and talking to us about your new book and what you’ve been up to. It’s been very nice catching up with you again.

[00:32:05.830] – Nick Petrie
Likewise, it’s my pleasure, Alan, and thanks for having me back.

[00:32:09.230] – Alan Petersen
Thank you for joining me on the podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please take a moment to rate and review it on your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback makes all the difference in connecting with fellow Thriller fans. Go to thrillingreads. Com for show notes, transcripts, and to sign up for exclusive access to giveaways, discounts, and outstanding book recommendations. Until next time, keep the pages turning and keep the mysteries unraveling.